Phil Harvey, CEO of Sabre56, on The Current State of Bitcoin Mining, and the Future of Mining + Energy Usage | Ep. 271

In an exclusive interview with cryptonews.com, Phil Harvey, Founder & CEO of Sabre56, talks about the current state of bitcoin mining, energy usage, and the future of the crypto mining industry. 

About Phil Harvey

Phil Harvey is the Founder & CEO of Sabre56, the leading hosting provider and digital asset mining consultant. As a cryptocurrency mining expert, Phil has been active in the space since 2014.

With a background in military operational planning, he has been devising solutions for the most complex problems facing blockchain companies for years, including growing one of the largest miners in the North American market.

Sabre56 today has consulted on over 700MW of computing power across North America, the Nordics, and the Middle East. The company builds and operates the most technologically advanced blockchain data centres, and acts as trusted hosting partner for leading miners globally.

Phil Harvey gave a wide-ranging exclusive interview, which you can see below, and we are happy for you to use it for publication, provided there is a credit to www.cryptonews.com. 

Highlights Of The Interview

• Intro & Phil’s backstory; Phil’s road from elite military to crypto
• Current state of the mining industry & outlook: Mining economics & the upcoming halving
• Sabre56 scaling in the US market; Partnerships + landmark consulting/construction deals
• Energy use; Conceptualising Bitcoin’s energy use + computing infrastructure of the future
• Crypto mining 101

Full Transcript Of The Interview

Matt Zahab 
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Cryptonews Podcast. We are buzzing as always and I'm super pumped to have the one and only Phil Harvey coming in hot on the show today. He's the Founder and CEO of Sabre56. The leading hosting provider and digital asset mining consultant is a cryptocurrency mining expert. Phil has been active in the space since 2014. Wow. Coming up on 10 years that has bananas with a background in military operational planning. He's been devising solutions for the most complex problems facing blockchain companies for years, including growing one of the largest miners on the North American market. Sabre56 today has consulted on over 700 megawatts, I believe that's megawatts, of computing power across North America, the Nordics and the Middle East. And the company also builds and operates the most technologically advanced blockchain data centers and acts as a trusted hosting partner for leading miners globally. Phil, pumped to have you on. Welcome to show my friend. How you doing? 

Phil Harvey 
I'm good. Thanks for the intro, Matt. Appreciate it. 

Matt Zahab 
Pumped to have you on, man. Before we get into Sabre56, let's jump right into Phil here. The star of the show, I'm a big military guy. It's hypocritical of me as I've never been in the military. And I just, I love it. I have friends and family in the military in Canada, friends and family in the military in the States. Don't actually know anyone who is in the British military, but now I know you. So we got all the countries covered, walk me through some military stories, childhood, Phil's journey from a little British lad into the CEO of Sabre56. Give me the whole TLDR. What happened from Phil as a young lad all the way up to present day? And I'd love if you could touch on some military stories while you go on that speil. 

Phil Harvey 
Yeah, sure. I'd say I was always one for trying something and pushing the envelope, as if it were. So I worked in a warehouse when I was a kid at school. So Wednesdays and Thursday evenings, I'd finish school, then go work till 8, 9 o 'clock in the warehouse, and then continued on the weekend. I assume mum and dad thought I was going to be just working in the warehouse for the end of my days, which of course, there's nothing wrong with that. They just expected me to do something else. I wouldn't say that I was showing huge levels of business or life acumen when I was at school. I wasn't really into it. I didn't have an aptitude for learning. And then joined the military. Both grandparents were in the military. We had national service back at that time. So they would be telling war stories and how it was a great time and I should go and so on and so forth. And I recall watching the news and it was Desert Storm. It must have been at the time. And I remember watching it with my grandfather. And there was some American soldier, all his gear on, kicking a door down, helicopters in the background, real bullshit. And I was like, okay, good. So I saw that and I was completely brainwashed. I want to do that. The reality is it's tough. You don't see it on the TV and then you can go home at night time. There's a bit more to it. So I joined the military at 16. I did okay at school. I wasn't necessarily learned. I got by. And then following that, I was in Germany and I specialised as a radio operator, a communicator. And through my loathing of PT physical training, I ended up navigating having to do the PT to go and play rugby because it was an easier option. Little did I know that the master training instructor had other plans and he said, listen, if you play rugby, then you've got to move that and you've got to do PT. So I became exceptionally fit. I've always been pretty skinny and lean. So I was playing on the wing at rugby, lots of running around, then was doing PT at the same time. And through a series of events of application, I was put forward for UK Special Forces. And through successful application was the youngest to pass at the age of 19, which I believe to this day still stands. And then ran around the world, pretend to be a soldier and went to Iraq, Afghanistan, and just learned a multitude of life skills. And it was incredible. If I were to restart the clock, I'd do everything again, exactly the same. It was phenomenal. But everything has to come to an end. I was tired of being told no. And I was ahead of my peers for promotion and wanting to do different jobs. And I just got tired of, yeah, next year. So I handed in my notice, I left and was in the civilian world. And it's a culture shock, you know, having been clothed, fed, watered from 16 to 22, 23, getting into the civilian world is a rude awakening. You believe you've got it all together, then you realize you've known nothing. So that was a big learning exercise, very fortunate to have some great business mentors, even through failures. You know, I never look at anyone that traditionally did me wrong, because, you know, a bad person, you know, learn a plethora of lessons from everyone. Moved to Dubai maybe 10 or so years ago. And from there, found Bitcoin through a very good friend of mine, Cal McDonald, shout out to Mr. 150. 

Matt Zahab 
What's the name? What's the reason behind the nickname there, Mr. 150? 

Phil Harvey 
Mr. 150, I have no idea. It's probably because he likes to go 150 miles an hour everywhere. Yeah, he's a good guy, apart from being Australian, but we can forgive that. So, yeah, he said, listen, you got to get into this dash, this dark coin, as it was at the time, back in 2014. So I was like, yeah, sure, whatever. I was working at a bank at the time. And I went on local Bitcoin, went and transacted with some random crypto gentleman at the time. I put $1,000 into an account, no KYC, AML, due diligence, nothing, just completely trusted some guy. And I got, I think it was like five or six BTC at the time. And I was like, right, yeah, we'll move this because of course, back in 2014, BTC had already gone to the moon and it was already as high as it was going to go. So instantly sold out of that and bought dark coin and inevitably that just disappeared into many stats at the time. Then, then Cal calls me back up about a year later in an absolute panic, he's like, bro, you've got to look at what's going on with Dash. I said, dude, I have no idea what Dash is. What are you talking about? And he's like, dark coin, it's now Dash and this has happened and so reloaded the wallet and so on and so forth. And then that $1,000 had turned into $60,000. And then that obviously beat my interest. So from their on it was, yeah, that was it. It was like, right, how do I get the next state of this? So then was managing a few portfolios for guys and went to Canada and built cryptocurrency mining farms and grew a couple miners and then moved and started Saber. 

Matt Zahab 
I love that. What a great story to kick things off. Hey, fellow Canadian here, where'd you go in Canada? I assume Quebec most likely?  

Phil Harvey 
Yeah, a little bit. We had operations there, but I actually, base for me was Calgary, and then I spent some time in Toronto. But it was very beautiful to live there, just disappear into the mountains at the weekend. It was very fortunate to be able to spend a couple of years there. 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah, I mean, the West Coast, the Canada is a special place. So, I mean, that was a treat. Thank you for that, Phil. Let's jump right in the Sabre56. Tell me about the company and let's start off with the name. What's the name behind this? Cause, you know, most of the time I get guests come on the pod and it's insert blocks here or crypto here or whatever. You know what I mean? It's pretty straightforward. You could at least picture in your mind, you have a good depiction of what the company name means, but Sabre56, I'm sitting here like, what the fuck is this? I have no clue what this could be. I love the name, it's catchy, but give us the lowdown. What exactly do you and the team do? And what's the vision behind the name? 

Phil Harvey 
Sure. So the reason for Sabre56 rather than Saber56 is that was my call sign out in Iraq. So you never pronounce it name numbers. You know, I was always Sabre56 for freeze of recognition. So that's where it carried over. And a couple of my fellow partners were also in the military and shared the same or similar call signs on their operations, which is why also the call sign is although logo is white on a black background, same as how we would wear it if we were to wear our target recognition flashes. So that's where the name comes from in terms of the company. So when I was deployed in Canada, you know, building farms, we very quickly realized that, you know, by and large, there was no rulebook to how farms were being built. They were very haphazard. They didn't follow policies or procedures or any kind of process. And as ex military guys, we were indoctrinated to be, you know, follow the steps, achieve success. So it was disheartening to be in an industry that we were passionate about and see the disarray, you know, guys were being sued or just ultimately pissed off because the operations were just not to the level that was required. And look, it's fine in an emerging industry, I guess, up to a certain level as you're finding your feet, but people are spending serious money, you know, even during S9 times and then into the S17s. And there was no excuse for the facilities that were built at the time to be just, you know, below standard and not following any kind of outline. 

Matt Zahab 
Can you touch on this for a sec? For someone who's not in the arena like you are, what makes something up to standards or not? Was this just like a complete and utter banana land shitshow, like unsafe, not efficient? Like how was it not up to standards? 

Phil Harvey 
If you go into a clothing store and there's shit everywhere, you know, the trainers on the rack, at different sizes and shapes, and they're not together and the t-shirts thrown on the floor. I mean, yeah, you can go into the store and you can buy the clothes, but are you going to go into one that's got a shit together or are you going to go into one that looks like a fire sale? So, you know, if we look at filters and fans, you know, a lot of the facilities weren't running filters and were wondering why so many machines were having board issues or fan issues. Airflow wasn't modeled at all. Cable management, it's basic stuff. If you've got cables in front of machines, the airflow is going to be hindered and therefore the operations uptime is going to be subpar. So it's just little things like this that weren't implemented, weren't being followed at all. And it just looked like, you know, I've described as a bag of dicks and it shouldn't do. So we set about trying to build farms that looked legitimate and operated in that way. You know, we are a company that has tier one operators in it and we understand what's required in order to achieve success and it's uncompromising. I mean, our company StrapLine is the unrelenting pursuit of excellence and that's absolutely what we believe in. I mean, we are bred on that. So we saw a big gap in the market where we could deliver consulting services for miners wanting to enter the space for us to build facilities. And very fortunate that the team is made up of leaders within projects, commercial and design management. The guys and girls have worked at very senior levels within extremely large consultancy and construction businesses globally and delivered hundreds of millions of dollars worth of projects. So as a company, as you alluded to on the very kind introduction, we've consulted on projects globally, massing over 700 megawatts from design, build and commercial engagement. And that was really our entry into the space and the idea from there was to amass some cash, build a reputation and communicate the right message to the industry that there is a pioneer, there is a leader within the space that has got their shit together and can deliver projects. So the next iteration for Sabre was then to build our own facilities and stand by our own code. And to showcase that this is the standard that you can expect to receive from Sabre and anyone that sees or recognizes the brand, it's always with #sabre56standard. And that's what we live by. So yeah, build our own facilities for hosting. I think we will only host due to any conflicts of interest between us and hosted entities, so no mining from a Sabre perspective. And we now obviously operate Client Sites, which was released a couple of months ago with the award of the 300 megawatt project down in Corpus Christi in partnership with Bootstrap and the SACSA project. 

Matt Zahab 
That's wild. One point I'd love to touch on is obviously what you concluded with the location in Corpus Christi. Getting into the States for you guys was absolutely massive, obviously as a mining company with just the plethora of resources and people and energy and economy in the States, of course, this was massive. I'd love if you could walk me through how you guys actually got into the States and doing research for the show. Didn't know there was that much involved in sort of the landmark consulting and construction deals. It makes total sense after reading about it, but as someone who's on the sidelines, it's like, you just whip it up and you're good to go. It's like you buy the piece of property good, but there's so many complexities. I'd love if you could walk me through the shit show that it takes to get into the States and getting those landmark consulting construction deals, the whole nine yards. 

Phil Harvey 
Yeah, sure. There's a very intricate path to walk on and to find a site to conduct due diligence and feasibility on sites, understanding the requirements from the utility, the counties, the approving bodies, engineers and such, walking that all the way through into the design, build, commercial, procurement arrangements, managing contractors. A lot of it, the team have delivered before in previous lives, so it wasn't a big stretch for them to consult on these projects. It was majority copy-paste, but the more intricate elements such as the utility and learning some of the language there and understanding what the requirements are to plug in from utility meets facility perspective. But again, we're educated guys and girls that have learned different backgrounds in the past, whether that be military or banking, environment or whatever. So there are buzzwords that you learn and research and it's not overly cumbersome or difficult. So we were able to navigate that path successfully. It took a number of attempts and I'm sure our early clients were annoyed at some of the reasoning behind the process that we implemented, but we were also learning and that's everyone needed to understand that. No one knew how to deliver these things. So we managed to consult on a number of projects in the US and Canada for a number of clients. We've been known in the market. I was former CEO and COO for Phoenix. They've gone on to build large facilities now in Oman and Abu Dhabi, which I was involved on before I left. So I was known in the industry, obviously for the role I facilitated there. So once I started my own thing, it's the same contacts and connections and similar discussions, but letting the guys know that we were there to support them. And obviously one thing leads to another and you put your strategy together, you get the guys on board and then you go from building facilities for others to building facilities for yourself. 

Matt Zahab 
And what are some of the differences between building facilities in the US versus Canada or other spots? Or would it just be the obvious answers like zoning bylaws and construction bylaws and all that stuff? You know, like is there any non-energy specific things because we'll get into energy on sort of the second half here, but are there any non-energy specific nuances that deal in certain countries versus others? 

Phil Harvey 
Yeah. There's only a few locations where we've seen minor deviation, but generally, once you've figured that process out, you can have the discussions. And that's not to say that once you have a process mapped out that it's a route to success, there's obviously a number of different times and you're working with different entities all the time. Different people and they'll still follow a similar process, but a different way of getting for me to be. So it's generally the same and I feel comfortable in saying that, but there are obviously the usual nuances associated with working in different states or countries. 

Matt Zahab 
Of course. Phil, we got to take a quick break and folks, we have to take a quick break. Give a huge shout out to our sponsor of the show, PrimeXBT. And when we get back, we are going to talk energy usage 101 and the current state of the crypto, more specifically, Bitcoin mining market. Who's entered the space? What do we have to look forward to and what's going on right now? But until then, huge shout out to the one and only PrimeXBT. We love this team at PrimeXBT. They've been longtime friends of cryptonews.com and longtime sponsors of the Cryptonews Podcast. PrimeXBT offers a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders. It doesn't matter if you're a rookie or a vet, you can easily design and customize your layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style. PrimeXBT is also running an exclusive promotion for listeners of the Cryptonews Podcast. You get 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. Again, that is 50% of your first deposit that will be credited to your trading account. The promo code is CRYPTONEWS50. That's CRYPTONEWS50. All one word, to take advantage of this offer and receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. And now back to the show with Phil. Phil, let's get into the fun stuff here. Everyone wants to know about the current state of the Bitcoin mining industry. Who's moved into space over the last couple of years? Of course, we have the one and only halving, which I believe is March or April of 2024. I want to say we're six months away, give or take, which a lot of people just had Gracy Chen on the pod, the CEO of Bitget, and she is in the camp that the halving doesn't matter as much as it used to because, again, it's the halving matters less and less every single time. That's her point. A lot of people agree. Some people don't. Can't wait to get your opinion on this, but give us the TLDR. What is the current state of the mining industry? What players have moved into the space? Will the halving affect anything? Let's get into it. 

Phil Harvey 
The best response I ever received about halving was the last halving cycle. I was chatting with a facility operator and he asked me a very similar question, you know, would you think about the halving? Gave my opinion at the time and said, what about yourself? And his response legitimately was, I don't think it's going to happen. Which is disturbing to say the least is the facility operators. So, yeah, I don't know what he was smoking, but clearly it did happen and it will continue to happen. So that's the initial response. The mining industry is fragile, I would suggest. There's been a lot of movement. There's been a lot of rushing into the space in previous years. And we saw that unfortunately with bankruptcy this year, last year, of some of the major players in the space. And I believe unfortunately that's going to continue. Mine capitulation will be something that we will continue to experience over the next 6 to 12 months. And main factor for that is that everyone jumped on board by machines at silly prices. They weren't building the infrastructure quick enough. The debt management was poor. And we still have clients now that have tens of thousands of machines that are sat in warehouses or with bankrupt partners that weren't deployed and that need to be redeployed. 

Matt Zahab 
These machines still aren't redeployed. They're still just chilling. 

Phil Harvey 
There's still a large majority of machines that are not the worst yet. 

Matt Zahab 
Remember 2021 when people were just paying arms and legs to hold these? How are these not being put into use? Is there just not a need for it or what's the deal there? 

Phil Harvey 
A couple of words I would use there is recklessness and stupidity. And that's unfortunately, yeah, I mean, that's the crux of it. There was a huge rush for buying a chunk of aluminum with some hashboards in it and not thinking about where you're going to put these things. I mean, we're not talking 5, 10 machines you can throw in the garage. It's tens of thousands of machines that listed entities and the like were rushing out to buy. We had zero idea about where to put them, how to facilitate that. And there was also some greedy players in the industry that, quote and quote, had space but didn't. And they weren't able to put them online, which then impacted with penalties and it was just a complete shit show. So that really just accelerated a lot of issues that we saw. And unfortunately, you know, that aftermath is still being seen across the industry. So to get back to it, the current state of the industry is fragile but stable. But I think there's also a lot of naivety and guys just hanging on, waiting to see. And there's also still a lot of hope, which is not a strategy or for running a business. The, you know, Bitcoin will increase and it's just ludicrous that people still think that. Of course, it will increase over time. That's, you know, how the network is designed, but it's not guaranteed and it takes time. If you look at the revenue at the moment, so if you look at hosting prices, if you look at, you know, what guys are paying for power, we can assume that within S19 XP at the moment of let's say $0.4 that guys are making 30% to 40% margin currently. That's not going to be enough post halving for guys to continue making money. So we will see the same as we did in the last halving. Guys will continue to mine at risk until those that can't afford to pay slowly turn off. The other issue that we get into them is obviously the more efficient machines that are coming in to the market, which is good efficiency increases are positive. But that obviously bumps up the overall hash on the network more, which makes it harder for, you know, less efficient machines to make money. So that race continues. And, you know, if you don't have capital to deploy in order to buy the latest machines, you're going to struggle. And capital at the moment is extremely short in the market. There are a few players that have access to it, but there's a lot of waiting going on. And the more efficient miners that we're seeing on the market at the moment are the hydro and the immersion machines. And a lot of the facilities that have been built are air. So even to convert them, there's a big capex requirement that people don't already have, let alone to deploy hydro machines. So I would disagree with the comments that the halving is just another, you know, event and that it's getting less and less important. It certainly is not. I'm certainly not here to be doom and gloom, you know, but you've got to be realistic against this. And a lot of people aren't. So I've got no issues in saying it's going to be rough for the next, you know, 12 months moving into and then out of the halving. And it's good. It's a good perch and the industry needs it. And we should be looking forward to it. It should be a positive time for, you know, the least efficient players and the guys that didn't pay attention at school to be moved out the way. 

Matt Zahab 
Well said there. Have any big names moving in the space over the last two years? Because again, I want to say when did the bull market end? End of 2021, early 2022? I mean, give or take, right? Any big dogs jump in from during the bear market? Any big bear market dogs that are like, wow, just moving and grooving in the space? 

Phil Harvey 
We're under NDAs with various groups that we work with. What I can say that there's large hedge funds that are now moving in. So what we've seen from a market maturity perspective is initially you've got the hobbyists moving and the mining. Then you've got a few of the entrepreneurial bankers or fund managers that were able to get some cash together and build some of the early mining farms and miners. From there, you've got some institutional money that was looking in, dipping the toe in from the side and would invest in the soon to be or listed entities. Now what we're seeing in this next iteration is those companies taking over or starting their own. So they've kind of been dipping the toe in reviewing and viewing from the sidelines. Then I'll get it in themselves. We are seeing that institutional capital move into the space from real estate, hedge funds, large family offices, sovereign funds, and the industrialization of Bitcoin is well upon us. I believe, unfortunately, that the retail mining is going to become a thing of the past, just natural market progression and as industrialization kicks in. It's sad, but it's inevitable. 

Matt Zahab 
So, the way she goes, it's like anything else in life, the bigger and badder you are, you'll come in and eventually grab some of the cake. Honestly, I think, I mean, look, yes it's sad that the small guys and gals are getting knocked out, sure, but I'm all for this. You know, if we want to really move the needle here, I'm all in for the big corpse coming in. Phil, last thing we really need to get into is energy use as a whole. This is something that's way above my pay grade. Admittedly, I do need to do my homework in this regard. Of course, I obviously understand how Bitcoin mining works and all that, but the whole energy use stuff, like even when I'm reading the bio, I'm like darn, I read over your bio a couple of times to make sure it was good before I read it. And then I get over the 700 MW and I'm like, is that million watts, mega watts? Like how much is a megawatt? I got to level my game up, fully admitting that. But walk me through the sort of present day energy use. How do we conceptualize Bitcoin's energy use and how is computing infrastructure of the future going to affect, you know, digital assets and renewable energy? 

Phil Harvey 
Big questions. Okay. Where to start? 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah, let's start with conceptualizing Bitcoin's energy use. Cause a lot of people still don't, myself included, still don't have a full, full understanding of like the, you know, X amount of megawatts that it takes to produce X amount of Bitcoin. I know it's obviously very nuanced and depends on where you are in the world and how cheap you get that electricity for and for that energy rather whole nine yards. But walk me through how all that works strictly in regards to Bitcoin. 

Phil Harvey 
So S9s, you could have a 5 megawatt facility back in the day, which would have been a large facility for S9s. And they were producing or they require about 1300 watts. So you would have had in there about 3,000 machines, 3,500 machines roughly, which would have been considerable. So if we look at, let's call it 3,500 machines, S9 was producing what? Maybe 12 terahash? So that would have been 42 petahash, which is pitiful in today's hash power for machines. So if you look at that 5,000 kilowatts or 5 megawatts at the moment, that's going to be, let's call it 1,500 machines. It's a little bit over, but 1,500 machines and then let's use an S19 XP. That's going to be 210 petahash that you are now producing. So in terms of an uplift, it's considerable. And that's what we've got to focus on when we look at efficiency. I mean, that's a 200% increase in efficiency from the S9 to the S19 in terms of the power draw that you can get from a facility. So one of the misconceptions or one of the common issues that we come across in the industry is, you know, Bitcoin's consuming lots of power. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It does. But don't compare it to a country because there's a number of other industries that consume more power than a country. Review Bitcoin's energy usage against the banking sector. And you will see the blockchain network is hugely more efficient than the banking sector is. Not only from a consumption perspective, one to one, but also from construction perspectives. So these are the comparisons that we should be looking at. And once we are building large facilities, you know, it's obviously building a one gigawatts or a thousand megawatt facility, the SACSI project, again, that we know is 300 megawatts in Corpus Christi. And then we've got Moonwalk in Oman, which again is a couple of hundred megawatts, same with Phoenix in Oman and Phoenix in Abu Dhabi. These are hundreds of megawatts of facilities. We're following up on and chasing the data centers, traditional data centers. And the data centers use massive amounts of power. You would be blind and naive to think that we are not going through the digital evolution of our existence. And to be digital means to go online. And if you're going to go online, you need infrastructure to support that. Where's that going to come from? So, you know, that's where we're heading at the moment. And, you know, the reason why I noted the S9s at the start is that efficiency. So we are able to sustain the network in a smaller condensed allocation of power, even though we are growing. So there will become a point where we do reach equilibrium in terms of the amount of power that we need to allocate towards this, because the efficiency of the machines will increase to a level where we no longer need to expand into new facilities of power. And then after mass expansion comes refinement. And then it's looking at your operations and how you can make that more efficient. It's looking at the grids and looking at how we can, you know, support the infrastructure of the grid, how we can, you know, support the green initiative to not consume carbon or reduce the consumption of fossil-based fuels. But the other misconception is that, you know, Bitcoin is bad for the environment and it uses fossil fuels. We connect to the same grid that everyone else does. So if that grid produces 90% coal, that means everyone that's connected to that grid is also using 90% coal. We don't go to the grid and say, hey, we only want fossil fuels. We go to the grid and say, hey, what spare capacity do you have that you are not able to utilize? What can we take from you and pay for and support the economy in order to run our business? And if they say, hey, you can take this power, it's 90% coal. Okay, it's not great. And thankfully, we are seeing, you know, ESG strategies that are now focused heavily on not supporting 90% coal as an example. But in the same breath, if we're taking that power that the grid is producing and not using, we're increasing the revenue upstream. So we're increasing that for the economy and we're increasing that for the government and for the utility, which then goes back into the government's initiative for them going green. So if they weren't using 200, 300, 400 megawatts of power, and they now are, that's more revenue for them to accelerate their own requirements to turn down coal and turn down gas and go into hydro or nuclear or wind or solar. So you have to take a holistic view towards all of this and realize that it's not just one dimensional, which is what a lot will unfortunately view it as and it comes down to education.

Matt Zahab 
Well said. Yeah, you got my head spinning on that last one. I mean, it's such a good point. All the Bitcoin haters, it's always one of the first things you hear about, oh, terrible for the environment. But like you said, I remember reading an article in 2021 where it was like, dryers and washing machines consume infinitely more energy than Bitcoin mining does. It's like, are we going to go back to the 40s and 50s and start hanging up clothes on a, you know, on a clothesline and throwing our shit in a bucket and throwing in some soap and wash it? No, it's just like, it's just something else to narc on. Phil, this has been an absolute treat of an episode, though we are getting a little tight for time. We do need to wrap up. Last thing before that, this is a personal question for myself. Have you ever been told you look like Penn Badgley? 

Phil Harvey 
No, but if he's looking like me, then I suppose good for both of us, I guess. 

Matt Zahab 
I didn't even know who he was until like three years ago. And then I'd be at a bar or I'd be wherever. And it's mostly girls cause he's from the show called YOU, but I actually watched it with my ex just cause she was like, you're in this. So they say I look a lot like him and you and I look sort of similar, but you are a literally mirror image of the lad. Google him his name is Penn Badgley. Now that I've shown you, it's probably gonna be stuck in your head for a while. So I apologize. And I would also bet if you want to do a little friendly bet, I'll bet you that in the next six months, someone will walk up to me like, you look like Penn Badgley. I'll bet the house on it. 

Phil Harvey 
Done. Okay. 

Matt Zahab 
But that's it. But before we go, Google him cause I want to see your reaction. Penn Badgley, check him out. Am I up to lunch or am I right here? 

Phil Harvey 
Let's see. 

Matt Zahab 
He's good looking lad too, so it's a compliment, but you know what I mean? He's pretty similar. Twins. 

Phil Harvey 
If you want to agree with that, then that's fine. But yeah, I mean, why not? He can look like me rather than me look like him. 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah. Penn looks like you. There we go. But Phil, appreciate you coming on. Absolute pleasure, learn to ton, and definitely have some homework to do. Before we let you go, can you please let our listeners know where they can find you and Saber56 online and on socials? 

Phil Harvey 
Sure, so you can find us at the usual platforms, so LinkedIn and Instagram under Saber56. 

Matt Zahab 
And yourself, you online anywhere. 

Phil Harvey 
I am a ghost. I only appear as the company. I'm away from social media and focusing on person to person interaction, something I've done probably for the past 12 years. 

Matt Zahab 
Folks on grand and I love that. Phil, thanks again man. Appreciate it. Would love to have you and the team on for round two. Wishing you guys all the best and we'll keep in touch. 

Phil Harvey 
Thank you so much. Appreciate it, Matt. 

Matt Zahab 
Folks, what an episode with Phil Harvey, Founder and CEO of Saber56. What a great episode on everything Bitcoin mining related. The current state of Bitcoin mining, the future of mining energy usage. You name it. Phil covered it. Huge shout out to both of our teams for making this happen. To the listeners, love you guys. Thank you so much for everything. If you enjoyed this one and I hope you did, please do subscribe. Justas my amazing sound editor. You're the GOAT. Thank you. Appreciate you and back to listeners. Love you guys. Thank you so much for everything. Keep on growing those bags and keep on staying healthy, wealthy and happy. Bye for now and we'll talk soon.